How your lens selection controls portrait outcome

WayneF

Senior Member
Except that it is correct to point out that where we stand affects perspective, not the lens. This user is changing where he stands for each lens (changing subject distance to maintain same subject size). Where he stands does affect perspective, and any lens can only simply capture the perspective that it sees. What the lens sees is determined by where the lens is standing. It would have been actually instructive if this demo also stated the subject distance for every shot.

Watch the background tree, its size. Same thing is happening to the ears (relative to the nose). This is called perspective, and is affected by the relative distances, not the lens. Meaning, relative distance to nose, and to the the ears. The apparent relative size of nose, etc. The lens does often affect where we have to stand, but where we stand is what affects perspective. The lens simply shows the perspective that it sees there.

A major rule of thumb for portraits is to ALWAYS stand back at least about 6 or 7 feet from subject, to prevent this. 5 feet is not real bad, but 7 feet is better. 9 feet has fans, better yet.

Then use the lens to get the view you want, longer for head and shoulders, or much wider for standing or a group shot. But do always stand back a little, for proper perspective.
 
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Stoshowicz

Senior Member
Digital camera world ,is perhaps misleading on this.9 things you should know about using prime lenses

"An important factor to consider when you’re buying a prime lens is which focal length to go for. Back in the days of 35mm film, a 50mm prime was considered a ‘standard’ lens. That’s because it gives pretty much the same perspective as viewing a scene with the human eye, without the magnification of a telephoto lens or the shrinkage a wide-angle lens uses to squeeze more into the frame."

IMO , in common parlance , perspective includes angle of view , and so a wide angle lens does create that change in perspective , regardless of the truth that cropping down a ten degree pic to five degrees , is rather equivalent to shooting with the 5 degree lens.


 
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WayneF

Senior Member
Digital camera world ,is perhaps misleading on this.9 things you should know about using prime lenses

"An important factor to consider when you’re buying a prime lens is which focal length to go for. Back in the days of 35mm film, a 50mm prime was considered a ‘standard’ lens. That’s because it gives pretty much the same perspective as viewing a scene with the human eye, without the magnification of a telephoto lens or the shrinkage a wide-angle lens uses to squeeze more into the frame."


The human eye has very confusing properties. If we stare at the right end of a text scroll bar on the TV screen (or on this very line of text here), we cannot read the left end (not until we move our eyes left). Yet we say we can "see" the entire wall behind the TV (or behind this monitor). We might even claim a 180 degree view, but we can only read in a very tiny narrow spot where we concentrate our attention. Hard to pin down just what our eye can be said to see.

I think the "normal lens" thing is that it shows us later the angular view that we think we remember seeing when we were there. :) This scene "looks right" to us. But angular width of view is definitely Not the same thing as perspective. We could see same perspective if we stand in the same spot.


IMO , in common parlance , perspective includes angle of view , and so a wide angle lens does create that change in perspective , regardless of the truth that cropping down a ten degree pic to five degrees , is rather equivalent to shooting with the 5 degree lens.

I disagree. Mirriam Webster says perspective is " the interrelation in which a subject or its parts are mentally viewed <places the issues in proper perspective>;"

It is not at all about overall angle of view. For obvious example, cropping also changes that angular view, just like using another lens would, but it does not affect perspective. If standing in the same spot, different lenses offer different angles of view, but all will show the same perspective from that same spot (relation of things in that view, in this first example, the size of the background tree, or the size of the nose relative to the head, etc.) The ladies see these things better than us dumb guys... shoot them too close, and they may not be able to tell you why, but they will tell you they don't like the way it makes them look. Big noses, etc.

My bet is on the "truth" you mention. Simple tests will easily confirm that perspective is created only by where we stand. Then all that any lens can do is to reproduce what it sees there. If standing in the same spot, then cropping the ten degree view (and enlarging it to same size again) is the same view and the same perspective as the 5 degree view (that is simple magnification). But if we move where we stand, then the lens will see a different perspective, and will reproduce it. This is all basics.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
This is all really easy.. Here's a quicky to show the point. Yes, I could have planned it a bit more carefully. :)

Four pictures. The flashes are 12 feet from the house. Two pictures 4 feet from flashes, and two at 12 feet. One each of those was 24mm lens and one each was 120 mm lens.

801_2092a.jpg


Here they are cropped and enlarged, to be able to see it. Trust me, I was very careful. Or much better, simply do this yourself so that you will believe it. It's a very good thing to know.

801_2092.jpg

12 feet 120 mm - the flashes are roughly the width of the narrow brick separator.

801_2093.jpg

12 feet 24 mm - very different lens, but at the same distance, so same perspective.
Other than the overall angular view of course, it is the exact same view (if from the same position).

801_2094.jpg

4 feet 120mm - the flashes are roughly the width of the window and the separator. Note that at 4 feet, the near flash appears a bit larger than the far one (flash mountings are 7 inches apart). Imagine if that 1.25 inch hinge circle was a nose? You might never notice it, but your wife definitely will, to the extent of not liking how you made her look. This is Perspective.

801_2095.jpg

4 feet 24 mm - very different lens, but at the same distance, so same perspective.
Other than the overall angular view of course, it is the exact same view (if standing in the same position). What else could we possibly expect? :)

24 mm saw a much wider view and a lot more sun on this last one, mostly the central black flashes became a more minor effect, so the A mode exposure fell back a stop. I left it, it was not my point.

Note that the two 120mm pictures do not look alike, and the two 24 mm pictures do not look alike, because the lens stood at different distance locations. However those lenses standing at the same distance location saw exactly the same view there. How else could it possibly be? :)

Perspective is the relative appearance of items in the scene (like the flashes and the house here, and of course like noses, which is a concern of portraits). Perspective is only about where the lens is standing (i.e. the view seen). Perspective is NOT about the lens. Any lens merely captures what it sees there, what else could it do? It is of course the same view that our eye sees there at the same location.

And of course, the overall point is that portrait perspective is improved if you always take care to stand back at least 6 or 7 feet. Then use whatever lens you need to get the view you want (speaking of overall angular width --- head and shoulders view, or full length or group, etc, etc). But do just stand back a bit.
 
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Stoshowicz

Senior Member
I don't think there's really any flaw in your facts as you are presenting them , I'm just aiming at the word perspective and what this means to people.
this is another definition provided by Merriam Webster


a : a visible scene; especially : one giving a distinctive impression of distance

I'm, thinking size of a subject in a photo, relative to the uncropped background , gives one a sense of distance , from the subject to the photographer. This definition 'impression of distance' does apply , its real actual documented English usage. Cropping the photo really does make the object appear to be closer , as does magnification. Optical distortion is related to subject to camera distance , perspective is a broader concept which includes the size of the subject in the entire uncropped image. I feel this is an important issue to clarify , but I'm not doubting the validity of what you mean about standing back a few feet.
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
I don't think there's really any flaw in your facts as you are presenting them , I'm just aiming at the word perspective and what this means to people.
this is another definition provided by Merriam Webster

a visible scene; especially : one giving a distinctive impression of distance
At risk of sounding pedantic, I'm going to say that definition didn't sound right when I read it, and when I look up the word "perspective" online the definition you provide, "a visible scene... et al" is always the third definition, including on the Merriam Webster online dictionary.

Working as the department manager of Fine Arts department, I think I've learned what is meant, typically, by the word "perspective" and Dictionary (dot) com has the simplest, most accurate definition, based on my experience: "a technique of depicting volumes and spatial relationships on a flat surface." Most every other dictionary I look at uses this definition as the primary definition of the word "perspective". So while the definition your provide is one definition of the word, it does not appear to me to be the operative definition, the definition most people are using. It's certainly not how *I* use the word.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Virtually every word in English has several meanings and usages. Some words have dozens, or some simple common words maybe more than 100 can be detailed (see a large dictionary for "set", a few hundred). :)

We might even share our perspectives on the elections. :) Works kinda mean what we say they do.

But for photography, Perspective deals with the visual relationships of scene objects. IMO, that does not include angle of view, which is not a variable visual relationship of scene objects.

photographic perspective - Google Search
 

Horoscope Fish

Senior Member
But for photography, Perspective deals with the visual relationships of scene objects. IMO, that does not include angle of view, which is not a variable visual relationship of scene objects.

But for photography, Perspective deals with the visual relationships of scene objects. IMO, that does not include angle of view, which is not a variable visual relationship of scene objects.
*confused look* "Scene" objects or SEEN objects?

Just as is it important to know words can have different meanings, so is it important to understand the same word, spelled differently, has a different meaning altogether.

But as for understanding what Perspective is, and too put this to rest in my own mind I found three photography instructors standing around doing very little between classes and asked them about this. The two gentlemen both have MFA's and over thirty years of teaching photography between them. Melinda recently defended her PhD and has been teaching photography and photo journalism for twenty years. I asked the three of them what perspective means as it relates to photography. They all three agree; it has to do with representing, or communicating, volumes and spatial relationships of three-dimensional objects on a two-dimensional plane.

When I asked about field of view I was told, "Those are two different things..." So in, short, I'm agreeing with you here and going further by saying I don't think this is a matter of opinion; it appears it's a matter of fact. Field of view and perspective ARE two different things.
 
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Stoshowicz

Senior Member
At risk of sounding pedantic, I'm going to say that definition didn't sound right when I read it, and when I look up the word "perspective" online the definition you provide, "a visible scene... et al" is always the third definition, including on the Merriam Webster online dictionary.

Working as the department manager of Fine Arts department, I think I've learned what is meant, typically, by the word "perspective" and Dictionary (dot) com has the simplest, most accurate definition, based on my experience: "a technique of depicting volumes and spatial relationships on a flat surface." Most every other dictionary I look at uses this definition as the primary definition of the word "perspective". So while the definition your provide is one definition of the word, it does not appear to me to be the operative definition, the definition most people are using. It's certainly not how *I* use the word.
You may have a favorite definition you like, but that doesnt mean the term doesnt have the usages other people use.
I dont see why y'all are being so defiant about this, I'm sure you've come across the term birds eye perspective , or broader perspective or from the perspective of the .. driver, cat , skydiver etc. The esoteric sources I keep coming across , use the therm in this way, and then routinely disavow it.
Cambridge in color
In addition to relative size, a telephoto lens can also make the distance between objects appear compressed. This can be beneficial when you're trying to emphasize the number of objects, or to enhance the appearance of congestion:
telephoto_busy2.jpg
Exaggerated Crowd Density

telephoto_compress1.jpg
Exaggerated Flower Density
left: 135 mm focal length - congestion of punters on the River Cam - Cambridge, UK.
right: telephoto shot of flowers in Trinity College, Cambridge, UK.
In the example to the left, the boats all appear to be right next to each other — even though they appeared much farther from each other in person. On the right, the flowers and trees appear stacked on top of one another, when in reality this image spans around 100 meters.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
*confused look* "Scene" objects or SEEN objects?


I guess you can take it either way, but I meant scene objects, meaning photography shows scene objects (I imagine scene implies seen, or at least to be seen.)

We might have a goal to distort or undistort the scene that will be seen (leaning walls for example), but normally, the goal is to show the scene we see (we should not distort it simply because we were too dumb to know to stand back a little. :) ).

Whatever lens we use, wide angle or telephoto, all the lens can do is to see and show the scene we aim it at. Where we stand is all that determines the perspective of what the lens sees there, and then that view is all that the lens can show, regardless of which lens it is.

Perspective is NOT about the lens, it is only about where we stand, what is seen there at that location. But the lens can influence where we have to stand.
 

WayneF

Senior Member
You may have a favorite definition you like, but that doesnt mean the term doesnt have the usages other people use.
I dont see why y'all are being so defiant about this, I'm sure you've come across the term birds eye perspective , or broader perspective or from the perspective of the .. driver, cat , skydiver etc. The esoteric sources I keep coming across , use the therm in this way, and then routinely disavow it.

Yes, there are lots of definitions, but my point was the original thread demo (thread subject, how lens selection controls portrait outcome") was blatantly the wrong notions, giving False knowledge, implications which are not true. Demo was about where we stand, but did not mention it. Demo requires a very special implied case of where we must stand to be at all true. Where we stand with our lens is all that controls the perspective effects shown. Stand in the same spot with ANY lens, and you will get the same perspective.

In addition to relative size, a telephoto lens can also make the distance between objects appear compressed. This can be beneficial when you're trying to emphasize the number of objects, or to enhance the appearance of congestion:

This is said, and it CAN BE true, UNLESS if you stand up near the near subject, then the distance to the far object is exaggerated, the opposite of compressed.

Where you stand is what matters in what will be seen. What this did not say, but should have said, is stand way back if you want to compress the distance (meaning, hide any appearance of size differences representing normal distance... it is a percentage thing). It does not matter which lens you use, you will get the same perspective if you stand in the same spot. There is simply no other answer possible, if you stand in the same spot. You see the same view there, which any lens will capture.

However yes, you will have to enlarge a wide angle view very substantially compared to a telephoto, but the perspective will be the same regardless of lens used in the same spot.
 
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Stoshowicz

Senior Member
Yes, there are lots of definitions, but my point was the original thread demo (thread subject, how lens selection controls portrait outcome") was blatantly the wrong notions, giving False knowledge, implications which are not true. Demo was about where we stand, but did not mention it. Demo requires a very special implied case of where we must stand to be at all true. Where we stand with our lens is all that controls the perspective effects shown. Stand in the same spot with ANY lens, and you will get the same perspective.



This is said, and it CAN BE true, UNLESS if you stand up near the near subject, then the distance to the far object is exaggerated, the opposite of compressed.

Where you stand is what matters in what will be seen. What this did not say, but should have said, is stand way back if you want to compress the distance (meaning, hide any appearance of size differences representing normal distance... it is a percentage thing). It does not matter which lens you use, you will get the same perspective if you stand in the same spot. There is simply no other answer possible, if you stand in the same spot. You see the same view there, which any lens will capture.

However yes, you will have to enlarge a wide angle view very substantially compared to a telephoto, but the perspective will be the same regardless of lens used in the same spot.
Sir, we are not fundementally in disagreement about the physics , we differ really only in what we mean by perspective , the distortion which is noticeable standing close ,, whatever the focal length is,, is not the only thing that constitutes 'perspective".ummm IMO,,
When we mentally crop the aforementioned wide angle view, to match the narrow angle view, you are removing , what I am saying, is a perspective alteration -that you ALSO are aware of. :)
As a practical matter , at the near distances I suspect you work , the distortion is probably very evident. I use a lot of telephoto, some macro, and in these uses , this distortion just isnt high on the list of things to combat, though my closest working distances may be between four inches and ten feet. The perspective issue for a group of birds at 80 feet more likely is in trying to determine comparative size. The Cambridge article attends to this.Or that multiple subjects appear to be clumped distance-wise.
But if both of us were to try to take a photo from the inside of a car , as accurate to the drivers perspective as we can get , we probably will end up with something like a 35 to 50 mm lens.. (at least not from 15 feet behind the car with a 600mm.)

Again , from Cambridge in color ..a well reputed photographic site , the problem is jumping back in forth between popular and esoteric terminology.

TELEPHOTO PERSPECTIVE

A telephoto lens is special because it has a narrow angle of view — but what does this actually do? A narrow angle of view means that both the relative size and distance is normalized when comparing near and far objects. This causes nearby objects to appear similar in size compared to far away objects — even if the closer object would actually appear larger in person. The reason for this is the angle of view:
wa_wide-angle-of-view.png
Wide Angle Lens
(objects are very different sizes)


wa_narrow-angle-of-view.png
Telephoto Lens
(objects are similar in size)


Even though the two cylinders above are the same distance apart, their relative sizes are very different when one uses either a wide angle lens and telephoto lens to fill the frame with the closest cylinder. With a narrow angle of view, farther objects comprise a much greater fraction of the total angle of view.
A mis
conception is that a telephoto lens affects perspective, but strictly speaking, this isn't true.
 
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Stoshowicz

Senior Member
They there adjusted distance based on focal length, just as you are describing changes perspective , and they call that , Telephoto perspective but then say that its "strictly speaking ' isnt true.
It's really rather cruel to the new SLR user. :)
 

WayneF

Senior Member
Sir, we are not fundementally in disagreement about the physics , we differ really only in what we mean by perspective , the distortion which is noticeable standing close ,, whatever the focal length is,, is not the only thing that constitutes 'perspective".ummm IMO,,
When we mentally crop the aforementioned wide angle view, to match the narrow angle view, you are removing , what I am saying, is a perspective alteration -that you ALSO are aware of. :)

I thought I was of the opposite opinion. :) Seems clearly obvious to me that cropping an existing image, or cropping with a telephoto lens or a DX sensor, none of which cases affect the perspective already seen due to standing in that same spot. The lens and sensor and picture can only capture what it sees from standing in that spot. Cropping only trims the edges, it does not change the perspective seen there, from that same spot.


As a practical matter , at the near distances I suspect you work , the distortion is probably very evident. I use a lot of telephoto, some macro, and in these uses , this distortion just isnt high on the list of things to combat, though my closest working distances may be between four inches and ten feet.

Macro is at close range, but not a special case of perspective. The perspective change (for one example, meaning apparent size difference of near and far items) is the same for a one inch subject depth at ten inches, as is seen in a one foot subject depth at ten feet. It is a percentage thing. Simple similar triangles.

But if both of us were to try to take a photo from the inside of a car , as accurate to the drivers perspective as we can get , we probably will end up with something like a 35 to 50 mm lens.. (at least not from 15 feet behind the car with a 600mm.)


Perspective is NOT about the lens used (not directly, but the lens could influence where you must stand). You may just be saying a normal lens is about 50mm FX or 30 mm DX, regarding what we imagine the human eye view to be.
IMO, not sure, but I think you may refer to angular field of view dimension as perspective. I don't do that.

Because any lens sees the same scene and perspective if from the same spot. Sure, some lens views are wider than others, but the part that is actually seen is the same perspective if standing in the same spot - I just showed that above.

A misconception is that a telephoto lens affects perspective, but strictly speaking, this isn't true.

I can agree with that. It is not the lens, it is where you stand with it. Focal length can affect depth of field, and magnification, and cropping, but not perspective, unless you move where you stand. The lens can offer good reasons to move, but moving where we stand is what affects perspective.
 
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Stoshowicz

Senior Member
Cambridge in color calls the segment telephoto perspective... there would be no such thing! as telephoto perspective
if they were being faithful to your esoteric use of the word perspective.
Since Your position is precisely that there is no "telephoto perspective" , since perspective by you,.. and some others,, is defined by distance alone ,regardless of lens angle.

I dont think that giving a fly a big looking nose is going to hurt their feelings , and since the depth of field is almost nonexistant there is little comparing of near and far object sizes... but yes distance will change the background, as I said , we already agree on the physics.

Repeatedly for your comparison , you want to crop away portions of the image , in order to negate the differences due to focal length -angle of view. To negate differences , you have to admit that there ARE differences. The difference in perspective which you are negating is the nearness of the subject to the camera. When you look at a photo, dont you get an impression of distance ? or does the fly always look tiny whether you see it magnified or not..,, Im thinking it looks a lot closer and bigger when its filling more of the screen.
The original GIF plays with that sense of nearness, the guys face always appears the same distance from the camera.
 

Woodyg3

Senior Member
Contributor
Take a painting, drawing, or drafting class (if there are any such classes now in the days of CAD software) and perspective is clearly defined as being relative to the point from which a scene is being viewed.

I guess people may talk of a telephoto or wide angle perspective since a photographer might well tend to use a telephoto lens for far away objects and a wide angle lens for closer subjects.

Anyway, just remember that if you use a wide angle lens to take someone's picture, their nose will look bigger than if you use a telephoto lens. :)
 

J-see

Senior Member
It's not just the distortion that is different, there's a DOF difference which enables you to shoot long lenses at an aperture impossible for short lenses to reproduce. There's also a completely different background compression.

When I do street with the big Tam, I can't (always) reproduce that with my short primes.

If you consider perspective as depending upon a relation between the subject and its background, then a wide-angle can never reproduce a telephoto shot and vice versa.
 
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WayneF

Senior Member
Cambridge in color calls the segment telephoto perspective... there would be no such thing! as telephoto perspective
if they were being faithful to your esoteric use of the word perspective.
Since Your position is precisely that there is no "telephoto perspective" , since perspective by you,.. and some others,, is defined by distance alone ,regardless of lens angle.

That's three times you've mentioned Cambridge here, which is the most that I can forgive you for. :) Some of it is OK, but I am not a fan, so I cringe.There are other things, you ought to see their gamma page, they actually imagine gamma was done for the human eye. :) How soon we forget. :)

Right, there is no telephoto perspective. It shows a larger subject of course (magnification and cropping, which we can easily just do later, except for pixel count), but the spatial relations are unchanged ,either way we do it. Perspective is only because of where we stand, due to what we see when we stand there, which any lens will capture there. We can speak of telephoto compression, but which is only true in a few special cases, depending on where we stand. The opposite is true if we stand other places. It's not about the lens. It's about where we stand. :) Why is that difficult for you?

If speaking of any so called "equivalent focal length", that is purely because of the smaller sensors cropping the image. Assuming same lens, the lens remains exactly the same lens, zero telephoto effect, but when we have to enlarge the cropped image more (because it is smaller), then we see a larger result view as if from a larger sensor with a longer lens (but the small one is necessarily enlarged more). All that happened was the smaller sensor cropped the image. If we stand in the same place, perspective remains the same either way. We are not required to stand in the same place, but perspective remains to be about where we do stand. Not due to the lens.

I dont think that giving a fly a big looking nose is going to hurt their feelings , and since the depth of field is almost nonexistant there is little comparing of near and far object sizes... but yes distance will change the background, as I said , we already agree on the physics.

I wish you wouldn't say that because I'm not agreeing that we agree. :) Macro being so close does NOT cause extreme perspective effects. It is relative, ratio of near subject to far subject. We probably could assign a number to it, except there are a few planes. :) Macro is just the same percentage thing, already addressed.

Repeatedly for your comparison , you want to crop away portions of the image , in order to negate the differences due to focal length -angle of view. To negate differences , you have to admit that there ARE differences. The difference in perspective which you are negating is the nearness of the subject to the camera. When you look at a photo, dont you get an impression of distance ? or does the fly always look tiny whether you see it magnified or not..,, Im thinking it looks a lot closer and bigger when its filling more of the screen.
The original GIF plays with that sense of nearness, the guys face always appears the same distance from the camera.

Of course different lenses can cause many differences, that's why we choose them. But perspective is not one of those lens properties. Where we stand determines perspective. The lens might influence where we want to stand, but perspective is determined by where we choose to stand.

You realize we are just spinning wheels here? No added substance.
 
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